Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair today

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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby JustaShooter » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:42 pm

SeanC wrote:Part of a police officer's job is to keep the peace and trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy a public space. When you open carry, you may sometimes cause a great deal of anxiety to other members of the public, who may report that to the police, who may come


I was with you up to here...

SeanC wrote:and ask you to disarm so that everyone can enjoy whatever activity you happen to be participating in at the time.


But then you said this. Had you said it was their job to come and check on us because of a report by another person, I would agree. I have no problem with LEO checking up on reports of a "man with a gun" to make sure that it is nothing illegal or dangerous or the like. But I disagree that it is a part of a law enforcement officer's job to try to compel someone to stop exercising a right simply because someone disagrees with it or it is causing someone anxiety regardless of the degree. If it were dangerous or potentially unsafe to those around me, I could agree with you. But, that was not the case.

It was no different than had I been exercising my right to free speech by wearing a pro-Trump t-shirt. "I'm sorry ma'am & sir, your pro-Trump t-shirts are causing discomfort and a great deal of anxiety to those poor folks over there. Why, they are almost out of their minds with alarm and concern over what he represents. Think of the children! I'm sure you don't intend to cause such alarm, and you wouldn't mind going back to your car and turning those shirts inside out before returning so they can stop being triggered and enjoy a safe space would you? My three uniformed friends and I think it would be best if you would do that, for everyone involved. I'm sure you understand."

Who among us would think that would be acceptable for them to do? Then why would it be a reasonable response for them to do so with my wife and me? It seems to me that what would have been an appropriate part of their job would have been for them to explain to those who had a problem with it that it was perfectly legal and our right to do exactly what we were doing.

SeanC wrote:If you choose to accommodate the request, the event becomes a non-issue. If you want to be rigid about your rights, you certainly have that privilege.


Sorry, I don't think it is rigid of me (or if it *is* rigid of me, that there is anything at all wrong with that) to think that exercising a right is in no way dependent on whether others agree with it or are comfortable with it. If that were the standard, our rights would be subjugated by the masses and we would have none left to exercise. Honestly, we see signs of exactly that happening in many areas already - political correctness is an attempt to do that to our right to free speech, and we in this group and others like it are only with great effort starting to slowly push back the tide that was a result of that happening to our RKBA.

SeanC wrote:But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal, had you looking over your shoulder the entire evening and, generally, pretty worked up about the situation.


Actually, it wasn't causing me to look over my shoulder or get generally worked up over it after the initial interaction - beyond the fact that it had happened at all of course. I'll admit my wife did notice they were still watching us and thought they might have been following us as we left so I guess she was "looking over [her] shoulder" at least part of the time afterward, and as a consequence causing me to confirm what she had noticed. But that had more to do with us being unhappy that they would try to intimidate us into disarming in the first place and us wondering if they were going to try another tactic since we had declined to agree to their "request".
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby WY_Not » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:55 pm

Kinda doubting that it was the kids who were nervous. My guess is that it was the Moms that were complaining. :wink:


SeanC wrote:...The police still went over to the lady and asked her if she wouldn't mind doing her tanning elsewhere because it was making the kids uncomfortable.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:11 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
SeanC wrote:Part of a police officer's job is to keep the peace and trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy a public space. When you open carry, you may sometimes cause a great deal of anxiety to other members of the public, who may report that to the police, who may come


I was with you up to here...

SeanC wrote:and ask you to disarm so that everyone can enjoy whatever activity you happen to be participating in at the time.


But then you said this. Had you said it was their job to come and check on us because of a report by another person, I would agree. I have no problem with LEO checking up on reports of a "man with a gun" to make sure that it is nothing illegal or dangerous or the like. But I disagree that it is a part of a law enforcement officer's job to try to compel someone to stop exercising a right simply because someone disagrees with it or it is causing someone anxiety regardless of the degree. If it were dangerous or potentially unsafe to those around me, I could agree with you. But, that was not the case.

It was no different than had I been exercising my right to free speech by wearing a pro-Trump t-shirt. "I'm sorry ma'am & sir, your pro-Trump t-shirts are causing discomfort and a great deal of anxiety to those poor folks over there. Why, they are almost out of their minds with alarm and concern over what he represents. Think of the children! I'm sure you don't intend to cause such alarm, and you wouldn't mind going back to your car and turning those shirts inside out before returning so they can stop being triggered and enjoy a safe space would you? My three uniformed friends and I think it would be best if you would do that, for everyone involved. I'm sure you understand."

Who among us would think that would be acceptable for them to do? Then why would it be a reasonable response for them to do so with my wife and me? It seems to me that what would have been an appropriate part of their job would have been for them to explain to those who had a problem with it that it was perfectly legal and our right to do exactly what we were doing.

SeanC wrote:If you choose to accommodate the request, the event becomes a non-issue. If you want to be rigid about your rights, you certainly have that privilege.


Sorry, I don't think it is rigid of me (or if it *is* rigid of me, that there is anything at all wrong with that) to think that exercising a right is in no way dependent on whether others agree with it or are comfortable with it. If that were the standard, our rights would be subjugated by the masses and we would have none left to exercise. Honestly, we see signs of exactly that happening in many areas already - political correctness is an attempt to do that to our right to free speech, and we in this group and others like it are only with great effort starting to slowly push back the tide that was a result of that happening to our RKBA.

SeanC wrote:But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal, had you looking over your shoulder the entire evening and, generally, pretty worked up about the situation.


Actually, it wasn't causing me to look over my shoulder or get generally worked up over it after the initial interaction - beyond the fact that it had happened at all of course. I'll admit my wife did notice they were still watching us and thought they might have been following us as we left so I guess she was "looking over [her] shoulder" at least part of the time afterward, and as a consequence causing me to confirm what she had noticed. But that had more to do with us being unhappy that they would try to intimidate us into disarming in the first place and us wondering if they were going to try another tactic since we had declined to agree to their "request".


I think I'll keep my post here rather short.........."I agree"
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby JustaShooter » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:38 pm

SeanC wrote:But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal

Forgot to mention - this was never offered as an alternative. Not sure why it wasn't, to be honest. In any case, with the holsters and clothing we were wearing it wasn't really an option anyway.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby deanimator » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:11 pm

SeanC wrote:Part of a police officer's job is to keep the peace and trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy a public space. When you open carry, you may sometimes cause a great deal of anxiety to other members of the public, who may report that to the police, who may come and ask you to disarm so that everyone can enjoy whatever activity you happen to be participating in at the time. If you choose to accommodate the request, the event becomes a non-issue. If you want to be rigid about your rights, you certainly have that privilege. But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal, had you looking over your shoulder the entire evening and, generally, pretty worked up about the situation.

I've personally caused a geriatric Nazi (he was actually a Holocaust fan) "a great deal of anxiety" by wearing my NRA ballcap in a Lakewood McDonald's. If he called the cops and one of them was dumb enough to ask me to take my cap off (and do what with it if I weren't driving, throw it away?), should I do it?

How about if it's a yarmulke instead of an NRA ballcap? A Sikh's turban? A crucifix?

I'm not in the habit of kowtowing to the extra-legal demands of passive aggressive bullies, whether they try to use third party "muscle" or not.

Where do you draw the line?
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:52 am

deanimator wrote:
SeanC wrote:Part of a police officer's job is to keep the peace and trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy a public space. When you open carry, you may sometimes cause a great deal of anxiety to other members of the public, who may report that to the police, who may come and ask you to disarm so that everyone can enjoy whatever activity you happen to be participating in at the time. If you choose to accommodate the request, the event becomes a non-issue. If you want to be rigid about your rights, you certainly have that privilege. But it sounds like your refusal to disarm, or at least conceal, had you looking over your shoulder the entire evening and, generally, pretty worked up about the situation.

I've personally caused a geriatric Nazi (he was actually a Holocaust fan) "a great deal of anxiety" by wearing my NRA ballcap in a Lakewood McDonald's. If he called the cops and one of them was dumb enough to ask me to take my cap off (and do what with it if I weren't driving, throw it away?), should I do it?

How about if it's a yarmulke instead of an NRA ballcap? A Sikh's turban? A crucifix?

I'm not in the habit of kowtowing to the extra-legal demands of passive aggressive bullies, whether they try to use third party "muscle" or not.

Where do you draw the line?


I don't think it should be an issue of "drawing the [a] line" . The remedy or the route the officers should have taken, after they checked out Justashooter and his wife, was to educate the person who caused the problem in the first place by complaining, (I'd have to go back and read his post and see if there was someone "complaining" or just saying there was someone with a gun).
But either way, that person,(and a percentage of the public), needs an education. How we educate the populace on a large scale , I have no idea.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby deanimator » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:10 am

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:I don't think it should be an issue of "drawing the [a] line" . The remedy or the route the officers should have taken, after they checked out Justashooter and his wife, was to educate the person who caused the problem in the first place by complaining, (I'd have to go back and read his post and see if there was someone "complaining" or just saying there was someone with a gun).
But either way, that person,(and a percentage of the public), needs an education. How we educate the populace on a large scale , I have no idea.

What if they're passive aggressive, crybully social justice warriors, and KNOW that THEY should be doing the "educating", at somebody else's gunpoint if necessary?

The cops aren't going to "educate" somebody like that, and I've seen numerous accounts of what happens when they try. You get nothing but "My mom says you have to do what I want!" stampy foot tantrums.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby docachna » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:34 am

deanimator wrote:
I'm not in the habit of kowtowing to the extra-legal demands of passive aggressive bullies, whether they try to use third party "muscle" or not.



DANG, that's a great quote.

Too bad I'll never remember it.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby deanimator » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:30 pm

docachna wrote:
deanimator wrote:
I'm not in the habit of kowtowing to the extra-legal demands of passive aggressive bullies, whether they try to use third party "muscle" or not.



DANG, that's a great quote.

Too bad I'll never remember it.

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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby glocksmith » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:43 pm

SeanC wrote:They're certainly within their authority to ask you and your wife to disarm.


IANAL...and AFAIK you are...but something doesn't sound right with the above statement. Elsewhere, reasonable suspicion or probable cause is required to detain a citizen. Justashooter and his wife were not doing anything illegal whatsoever. So my question to you is what gives them the authority to ask them to disarm? Is there something in the ORC, or some other legal mumbo-jumbo allowing officers to ask a citizen to refrain from lawful activities? I'm not being a smart alec here, I'm just curious about the specifics.
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Brian D. » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:49 pm

Hey glocksmith, the officers could ASK you to pass the drunk driving test shown in The Man With Two Brains, at any time. It's up to you then to decide whether or not you have the prerequisite juggling, singing, and tap dancing skills required to give it a whirl. Plus, walking a straight line one foot in front of the other. Then, walk that line ON YOUR HANDS. Then, on just ONE hand! :wink:
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby glocksmith » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:06 pm

Nyuk-Nyuk-Nyuk. Best answer I've gotten so far Brian D....only answer matter of fact. Sound of crickets. :|
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby deanimator » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:25 pm

glocksmith wrote:IANAL...and AFAIK you are...but something doesn't sound right with the above statement. Elsewhere, reasonable suspicion or probable cause is required to detain a citizen. Justashooter and his wife were not doing anything illegal whatsoever. So my question to you is what gives them the authority to ask them to disarm? Is there something in the ORC, or some other legal mumbo-jumbo allowing officers to ask a citizen to refrain from lawful activities? I'm not being a smart alec here, I'm just curious about the specifics.

They can ASK... and you can politely say "NO", just the way I did with the Rocky River cop who wanted me to inform when not armed.

If they want to take it beyond that point, as the saying goes, "I'm your huckleberry."
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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby Brian D. » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:48 pm

If we decide to do a group OC walk there next year, I suggest we make up some new lyrics for an old hippie song and sing it as we're strolling: "Are you going, to Stark County Fair?"
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: Encounter with Sheriff deputies at Stark County Fair tod

Postby glocksmith » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:14 am

I'd sure like to know what BB62...aka "you-know-who" has to say about this. I don't think he'd approve of the LEO's harassing of justashooter.
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