A question about road rage and carrying.

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A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby mustang87 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:35 pm

Hello, this is my first post, my name is Simon and I have a question about a family member who almost had a bad encounter and perhaps you could help because I didn't know what to say to him. Now this is all based on his version of events. He said he was rear ended at a stop light. minor. the person in the other car got out walked toward his car and punched it then opened the door to his car as if to pull him out. Other passers got out and it was apparently deescalated from there. He asked if he were a CCW holder here in Ohio did he have the right to defend himself in that situation? I did not have a answer for him and I DO NOT want to spread bad advice.

Thanks guys, glad to be apart of the forum.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby Chuck » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:11 pm

He has a right to defend himself, of course, but the question is, was he threatened?
Will the cops think he was threatened?
Was there some sort of conflict going on before the accident?

The obvious answer for the other guy is that he was checking to see if "family member" was injured and needed medical attention.
Shooting someone who has that story to tell is not going to go over very well with the policeman.

Now if the guy was trying to run him off the road, flashing lights and making threatening gestures, that's one thing.
If he was just texting and not paying attention when traffic slowed for the light, that's another

To use deadly force one must not have started the conflict, nor escalated it, had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, and not had a duty to retreat.
Under Ohio Castle Doctrine law, in his car or home he doesn't have a duty to retreat, and the prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooting wasn't justified, but based on the little bit of the story that you've told us, it could easily be that the guy was concerned about the person he rear ended and was checking to see if he had hurt him.

I hope that helps
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby ESAFO » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:41 pm

Chuck wrote:it could easily be that the guy was concerned about the person he rear ended and was checking to see if he had hurt him.


mustang87 wrote:He said he was rear ended at a stop light. minor. the person in the other car got out walked toward his car and punched it then opened the door to his car as if to pull him out.


1rst off welcome MUSTANG87
According to your OP the driver of the 2nd vehicle was not checking to make sure anyone was not injured.....

With that being said the driver of the 2nd vehicle now adays is lucky to still be sucking air & very fortunate it was'nt me that was driving the 1rst vehicle......
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby mustang87 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:26 pm

Chuck wrote:He has a right to defend himself, of course, but the question is, was he threatened?
Will the cops think he was threatened?
Was there some sort of conflict going on before the accident?

The obvious answer for the other guy is that he was checking to see if "family member" was injured and needed medical attention.
Shooting someone who has that story to tell is not going to go over very well with the policeman.

Now if the guy was trying to run him off the road, flashing lights and making threatening gestures, that's one thing.
If he was just texting and not paying attention when traffic slowed for the light, that's another

To use deadly force one must not have started the conflict, nor escalated it, had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, and not had a duty to retreat.
Under Ohio Castle Doctrine law, in his car or home he doesn't have a duty to retreat, and the prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooting wasn't justified, but based on the little bit of the story that you've told us, it could easily be that the guy was concerned about the person he rear ended and was checking to see if he had hurt him.

I hope that helps



Well he punched my family members car, walked up opened my family members door and, now this is according to him, I wasn't there, he thought he was trying to pull him out. This is all after the driver rear ended my family member.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby mustang87 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:33 pm

@ESFO that's correct, he said he (the driver who hit him) was not getting out to check on his family, he punched my family members car and opened his door. BTW I'm asking in his stead, he doesn't want to put himself out there for all to see. He allowed me to do this as long as I didn't go into his personal details.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby TSiWRX » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:42 pm

I'm not a lawyer, but AOJP always applies.

Preclusion is really the biggest issue. Here, my most immediate question to your family member would be whether he could have gotten away somehow, without putting himself or others at risk - maybe simply drive for a small distance, and either then or concurrently phone 911 to lodge the complaint against the other motorist.

The other party violently interacted with his vehicle as well as opened his door, but did that individual actually physically lay hands on him or even try to remove him from the vehicle? or did he simply open the door and stand there and yell? or just stop, there?

It's never really as clear cut as we'd like it to be. There's always other factors involved.

One thing you can definitely tell your relative is this:

Having a valid Ohio-CHL doesn't mean that he could defend himself. That self-defense should have started with being aware enough to lock his vehicle door to begin with (and if the vehicle door unlocked due to the impact, that's something that he's going to have to address), in order to deny any aggressor from gaining easier entry into his vehicle as well as to allow for increased reaction time to bring his defensive weapon into play.

The CHL itself is just as good as library card. It's not a magical amulet. It would have done him little good if his weapon was secured in his glovebox or center console while he was getting dragged out of the vehicle ( as in this incident - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502&hilit=adf8585 ) or, even if the weapon was on his person, if he was already getting skull-stomped while he was trying to access it, as he was being forcibly dragged out of this vehicle after the aggressor easily opened his door because it was unlocked.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby schmieg » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:20 pm

Much also depends on the physical situation. If your relative is 30 years old, 6'3" and 190 pounds of muscle, it is different than if he is 70 years old with a bad heart. A prosecutor and jury is much more likely to think that the second situation is justifiable self defense than the first one. Each situation has to be gauged on its own facts. One must be reasonably in fear of serious bodily harm or death to use deadly force. I know that my analysis of my situation is totally different now than it was 40 years ago.

The advice on a locked door is very good. If the guy breaks a window trying to get to you, there is definitely a basis to fear harm. The question is how serious is the harm feared.

Hopefully, the guy calmed down and had insurance.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:03 am

The info above is good and should be listened to. That said, assuming the situation went down exactly as described yes technically he would have had the legal right to defend himself. Ohio law presumes you're acting in self defense against a person unlawfully entering your vehicle.

Without getting deep into the details, that's not a free pass to shoot the person and as stated above shooting someone who opens your car door is very likely to get you at least arrested. If the person was unarmed and there isn't some extenuating circumstance, a conviction is a real possibility.

In a situation like that, stay in your car, lock the door and call the cops. If he escalates violence to the point of breaking your car window, that's a different story.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby willbird » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:50 am

The vehicle is the best escape device IMHO. As others said lock doors, drive away if need be. Dash cams that film both front and rear are avail, and would be a good tool. IMHO you will not be charged with leaving the scene of an accident if you flee an aggressive person, esp if one of your passengers calls 911 as you do so and gives the 911 operator a play by play.

Shooting an assailant is indeed the gravest extreme and no matter how "right" you are your life will get incredibly complicated if you are forced to do so.

Castle Doctrine does cover your vehicle.


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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby Chuck » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:20 pm

[quote="mustang87]

Well he punched my family members car, walked up opened my family members door and, now this is according to him, I wasn't there, he thought he was trying to pull him out. This is all after the driver rear ended my family member.[/quote]



Did he dent the car when he punched it?
Did anybody else see him punch it?

While that MAY be seen as threatening, it can also be seen as non threatening, or only property damage.
I gave you the three conditions to meet for self defense.
If he fit them, and can prove that in court by a proponderance of the evidence, he’s good to go.
The thing to remember is, he won’t be the final arbitrator on the matter.
A judge or jury will
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What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby mustang87 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:04 pm

Thanks guys for all the info. We both appreciate it, heck I learned a lot myself about my own rights in a situation like this. He did say he had hit 12 and 14 year old daughter in the back seat and there was a truck in front of him. the guy opened the door and stuck his head in the car and (he says so make your own assumption) acted like he was going to pull him out. but other passersby walked up and the situation deescalated as they walked up. He was upset because his kids were in the back and when the guy apparently punched the back driver pillar as he walked up was where his 12 year old was sitting and scared her after the crash. he's as avid of a shooter as I am, and been around guns almost as long as I have but the situation has really got him considering his CCW.
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Re: A question about road rage and carrying.

Postby Chuck » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:23 am

He should teach his kids to cover their ears if it looks like a gun is going to be shot in the car
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"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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