Juvenile felony question

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Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:32 pm

So when I was 16 (now 24 going on 25) I was charged and deemed a "delinquent child" by the courts. I know under ORC 2923.13 it says "Unless relieved from disability..." and number 3 would apply to me causing a state disability, as it's a juvenile crime I should not be under any federal disability.

I spoke to an attorney, but they wanted to file for a relief from disability, then file to have the felony expunged then have the case expunged that would now show up in order to get relief from disability. Well I went ahead and filed to have it expunged myself. While the prosecutor objected to it, the judge agreed that it is time to expunge it as I have a good job, stable work history and no other charges since then.

So I guess my question is getting it sealed/expunged should grant relief correct? As #3 should no longer apply to me as there should be no record since it is a juvenile case. I know adult cases do not get expunged, they are sealed but still kept in courts records.

This says if its expunged the record no longer exist, which means I should no longer be under disability because there should be no record to hold against me correct? I know if it's sealed the courts can still see it. Is there anything i'm missing here?

http://www.opd.ohio.gov/Juvenile/JV_Sealing.htm
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby BobK » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:35 pm

Welcome to the forms, Mike.

Yep, you should be good to go. No need to apply for relief from disability as the expungement means you are no longer under any disability.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:42 pm

BobK wrote:Welcome to the forms, Mike.

Yep, you should be good to go. No need to apply for relief from disability as the expungement means you are no longer under any disability.


Thanks for the reply! You may not know me, but after doing some research here I have come to the conclusion you would be the one to know the law, was hoping you would reply.

I will be obtaining my conceal carry permit soon, should everything go my way. I have about 2 weeks before I get the letter stating it's expunged.

I do have one more question, everything I have read says BCI can take up to 6 months to update their records. This would not cause a problem if BCI is still reporting a felony but Franklin county courts has removed it from their system would it?

Not sure what system LEO are using to pull my record, as they may pull from something that has not updated, that is my only concern.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby JediSkipdogg » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:57 pm

BCI is running a lot better now, they may only be a about a month behind now as they are telling us once a record is sealed to verify by running the person 30 days after we send them the paperwork. So I'd say it's less than 30 days now.

If you have any cause for concern, take any court paperwork you have with you to show and ask them when you apply. When we look at records, we go by what is reported on BCI. We don't have time to call every court up (88 adult and 88 juvenile courts in Ohio along with over 260 Mayor's Courts in Ohio) to verify they submitted accurate information. They may call if there is something of concern, but if they see a juvenile conviction on there, they may simply deny and then force you to appear. I'd take any proof with you at the time of application so that it is not denied.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:08 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:BCI is running a lot better now, they may only be a about a month behind now as they are telling us once a record is sealed to verify by running the person 30 days after we send them the paperwork. So I'd say it's less than 30 days now.

If you have any cause for concern, take any court paperwork you have with you to show and ask them when you apply. When we look at records, we go by what is reported on BCI. We don't have time to call every court up (88 adult and 88 juvenile courts in Ohio along with over 260 Mayor's Courts in Ohio) to verify they submitted accurate information. They may call if there is something of concern, but if they see a juvenile conviction on there, they may simply deny and then force you to appear. I'd take any proof with you at the time of application so that it is not denied.


Thank you! Do you happen to know what LEO uses to see background checks? I'm worried about it coming up on his computer from some stale record that hasn't been updated yet. I guess I could always carry the paperwork, or a copy in the car if im transporting the firearm.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:59 am

+1 to what Jedi recommended.

Take the letter you receive regarding your expungement with you when you submit your CHL application.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby JediSkipdogg » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:22 am

Mike2541 wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:BCI is running a lot better now, they may only be a about a month behind now as they are telling us once a record is sealed to verify by running the person 30 days after we send them the paperwork. So I'd say it's less than 30 days now.

If you have any cause for concern, take any court paperwork you have with you to show and ask them when you apply. When we look at records, we go by what is reported on BCI. We don't have time to call every court up (88 adult and 88 juvenile courts in Ohio along with over 260 Mayor's Courts in Ohio) to verify they submitted accurate information. They may call if there is something of concern, but if they see a juvenile conviction on there, they may simply deny and then force you to appear. I'd take any proof with you at the time of application so that it is not denied.


Thank you! Do you happen to know what LEO uses to see background checks? I'm worried about it coming up on his computer from some stale record that hasn't been updated yet. I guess I could always carry the paperwork, or a copy in the car if im transporting the firearm.


Police officers on the side of the road can see various history. I don't know what county you are from so I can't give a full answer (and I may know even know how that county runs.) I'm going to answer this from a criminal background perspective only (leaving driver's history and other systems out of this answer.)

I work for a police department in Hamilton County. When we run someone we get their local county history which includes any arrests made by any of the 43 police departments in Hamilton County. There are only three systems like this in the state. The other counties can only see their local police department history initially. If you are pulled over in Hamilton County but have an arrest in Cleveland, we won't be able to initially see that arrest.

We can run a separate query though that shows BCI and FBI (III) history. That will then show statewide arrests for which you have been fingerprinted for. Personally to me, I always recommend someone make a copy of all expungement/sealing paperwork with them for at least a year. Yes, that seems like forever, but the only other option is to pay for a background check say 3 months after you went through the process to make sure everything is clear. There have been times where a record was supposed to be removed but it gets hung in the system. A good example is Cincinnati is thinking of passing an ordinance that expunges 16,000 minor-misdemeanor drug arrests at once. That's going to put a huge job on their police departments, the clerk's off, BCI, and possibly even the jail. There is bound to be one or two that fall through at least one system by accident. Just the nature of the beast.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:05 am

Exactly, that is what I was worried about. Getting stopped and telling the LEO I have a gun in the truck, if I am on my way to range or something before I get my CHL and he happens to run me and BCI shows a felony..

I think what I will do is make a copy and keep it in my gun case and a copy in the car just to be safe. Don't want to get caught with my pants down and have no proof to back up my claims lol.

I live in Franklin county, the judge said it should take 2 weeks before I get the letter saying it was expunged. I think after I get the letter I will call the courts to see if the case # is still in their records. Then 30 days or so later just have get a BCI background check ran to make sure it's gone, money for it doesn't matter too much, just want to be sure it's removed so I don't have to deal with the hassles of a felony showing up while I have a gun :roll:
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby SeanC » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:04 pm

There might be a good reason the attorney wanted you to get a relief from disability first. There's a difference between the CHL eligibility statutes and the firearms disabilities statutes under federal and state law. Checking the boxes to get your CHL doesn't necessarily mean that you're allowed to have firearms. Can't provide any specifics without knowing more about your history.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:54 pm

SeanC wrote:There might be a good reason the attorney wanted you to get a relief from disability first. There's a difference between the CHL eligibility statutes and the firearms disabilities statutes under federal and state law. Checking the boxes to get your CHL doesn't necessarily mean that you're allowed to have firearms. Can't provide any specifics without knowing more about your history.


Well my charge was a Felony robbery, which I would be adjudicated delinquent child of a crime that if committed as an adult would be an act of violence, per the ORC. This would create a state disability, but not a federal as being consider a delinquent child is not the same as a conviction if I am correct.

The reason he wanted to get a relief first before the expunge is for double protection. Technically the expunging should grant relief as there should be no record of my felony robbery, hence there being no reason to have a disability as the case is "obliterated".

Now, in the example I posted before, like BCI not updating for 6 months even though Franklin county destroyed the record, say I did get pulled over with a gun in the trunk and the felony shows up through BCI but there is no record with Franklin county of the charge I still have been granted relief so it could not be used against me, where if they do see the felony, I would have to argue that it has been expunged and there would no longer be a record with Franklin county courts to go along with an outdated BCI report.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:56 pm

Also the F2 robbery is the only charge I have and should be expunged in a week or two creating a record free slate as the records should be totally destroyed, not just sealed.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Werz » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:14 pm

Mike2541 wrote:
SeanC wrote:There might be a good reason the attorney wanted you to get a relief from disability first. There's a difference between the CHL eligibility statutes and the firearms disabilities statutes under federal and state law. Checking the boxes to get your CHL doesn't necessarily mean that you're allowed to have firearms. Can't provide any specifics without knowing more about your history.


Well my charge was a Felony robbery, which I would be adjudicated delinquent child of a crime that if committed as an adult would be an act of violence, per the ORC. This would create a state disability, but not a federal as being consider a delinquent child is not the same as a conviction if I am correct.

The reason he wanted to get a relief first before the expunge is for double protection. Technically the expunging should grant relief as there should be no record of my felony robbery, hence there being no reason to have a disability as the case is "obliterated".

I was afraid you would say that. Personally, I think you should seek relief from disability, and I have recommended that - in addition to expungement - for people who want foolproof restoration of gun rights.

A certificate of final release is good enough for the "civil rights restored" provision of 18 USC §921(a)(20)(B) for the purpose of firearm disability under federal law. Expungement is good enough for the "sealing or expungement" exception of R.C. 2923.125(D)(5) for the purpose of concealed handgun licensing. However, the procedure described under R.C. 2923.14 is the sole remedy for disability under R.C. 2923.13(A)(2).

If the juvenile court's record has been expunged - i.e., destroyed or deleted - it may be difficult to prove the existence of the underlying adjudication. However, case law has established that a certified copy of a judgment entry and sufficient identification evidence [R.C. 2945.75(B)(1)] is not the exclusive method for proving a prior conviction. State v. Gwen, 134 Ohio St.3d 284, 2012-Ohio-5046. paragraph 1 of the syllabus.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:19 pm

So let me ask you this.. It's already going to be expunged.. Say I go to file relief.. What am I filing relief from at that point? As the courts would have no records of anything disabling me from owning a firearm?

And this was my worry, that 2923.14 says I must be granted relief. But getting it expunged would mean I no longer have a disability under 2923.13. It could be taken either way and that was my concern.

I doubt I would be granted relief without an attorney :? the prosecutor didn't even want it expunged.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Werz » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:46 pm

Mike2541 wrote:As the courts would have no records of anything disabling me from owning a firearm?

Read what I wrote in my last paragraph above. Then consider how many people know about your adjudication and disposition, and how many of them could be called to testify about that under oath. I know that eight years seems like a long time to you, but that perspective will change over time.

I'm just recommending the safest solution.
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Re: Juvenile felony question

Postby Mike6789 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:50 pm

Werz wrote:
Mike2541 wrote:As the courts would have no records of anything disabling me from owning a firearm?

Read what I wrote in my last paragraph above. Then consider how many people know about your adjudication and disposition, and how many of them could be called to testify about that under oath. I know that eight years seems like a long time to you, but that perspective will change over time.

I'm just recommending the safest solution.


So if I go to file it what would I say i'm filing disability from? Wouldn't they need to have records of me having a disability from some charge?

What are the odds of doing it without an attorney if the case has already been expunged?
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