Sig P320 drop safe issue

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Re: Sig P320 drop safe issue

Postby pk47 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:35 am

CCIman wrote:In Sigs defense, it passed all the drop tests that mattered - those that were typical (standarsd perhaps?) of the gun industry, and those asked for by the possible contractors (US gov, and LE agencies, specified tests)- what ever they may be. Obviously Sig passed those tests.

The fault there-in lies why these specific tests were used. I don't think the condition that p320's fail is unreasonable. The question may be whoever has designed these tests (or administers them) may be making it too easy for gun manufactures to have their products certified as "passing". So is the testing itself biased in favor of getting guns through to market.

The testing that Sig states they used, needs to be redesigned.

I agree. I've done a lot of engineering tests in my career, and the test doesn't always match what you see in the field, and what causes failures. It actually can be difficult to design tests because we don't always foresee failure modes.

These two tests seem to be designed around the center of gravity and the heavy side heading down first (nose down test) or a neutral position (side impact) without an rotation. As an engineer, my first thought was, well how are you accounting for the weapon rotating as you drop it? If you impart any spin to the weapon as you let go, you cannot predict the point of impact. The way one holds a handgun you'll almost always impart spin unless you do a perfect release - highly doubtful in the real world.
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Re: Sig P320 drop safe issue

Postby CCIman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:15 pm

Brian D. wrote:
CCIman wrote:
I have always wondered about 1911's. A loaded 1911 with the hammer down - will it fire if dropped and impacting the front or the back of the slide?


Yep, that was established in the original military trials. They determined the magic number to be a..twelve foot , muzzle-first drop down onto a hard surface, if I remember what I read correctly. Gun was loaded with hammer down.

And yet our military bought them, because they didn't get wrapped around the axle about this "potential" (fairly unlikely to occur) problem.


Must not have been enough lawyers alive at the time-- oops, forgot you can't sue the military too well.

BUT on the other hand, that is one single type test-- probably simply devised to minimally pass mil spec style requirement, and probably did not test other scenarios like dropping the gun on the hammer --- society was much more tolerant of risk when lifespans were short. Today we will get bent out of shape and axle wrapped, when a KB gets posted on the forum, or we simply get pelted on the head with shell casing, or a finger blister from trigger pinch.
Today, the mathematical risk or "potential" of a product is much less tolerated than the yore days of 1911.

Imagine millions of this type handgun in circulation by millions of people- that magnifies the probability of occurrence. You may never drop a handgun in your lifetime, but it does happen, or it gets knocked off a shelf or out, of your hand or off the workbench... somebody will win the powerball, too.

Your airbag may never go off, but it is disconcerting to know you may potentially get a face full of shrapnel when it does.
'CAN' does not equal "SHOULD'.
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Re: Sig P320 drop safe issue

Postby CCIman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:30 pm

pk47 wrote:
CCIman wrote:In Sigs defense, it passed all the drop tests that mattered - those that were typical (standarsd perhaps?) of the gun industry, and those asked for by the possible contractors (US gov, and LE agencies, specified tests)- what ever they may be. Obviously Sig passed those tests.

The fault there-in lies why these specific tests were used. I don't think the condition that p320's fail is unreasonable. The question may be whoever has designed these tests (or administers them) may be making it too easy for gun manufactures to have their products certified as "passing". So is the testing itself biased in favor of getting guns through to market.

The testing that Sig states they used, needs to be redesigned.

I agree. I've done a lot of engineering tests in my career, and the test doesn't always match what you see in the field, and what causes failures. It actually can be difficult to design tests because we don't always foresee failure modes.

These two tests seem to be designed around the center of gravity and the heavy side heading down first (nose down test) or a neutral position (side impact) without an rotation. As an engineer, my first thought was, well how are you accounting for the weapon rotating as you drop it? If you impart any spin to the weapon as you let go, you cannot predict the point of impact. The way one holds a handgun you'll almost always impart spin unless you do a perfect release - highly doubtful in the real world.


I'm not an engineer, but I would think that "gun drop testing" means testing various scenarios until it fails, then determining if that level of challenge would ever be conceivably achieved in the real world-- obviously the very likely possibly of the ccw gun falling out and hitting the ground in the dirty gas station bathroom stall (or behind a wall in Afghanistan while one is wearing 50 lbs of kit in 98 degree weather) was not accounted for in these standard tests. The limitation of the tests used is both unbelievable, and comedic.

That simple test in the video is not that inconceivable. You don't even have to drop it-- just smack the heel of the gun on a table at that angle.

Mythbusters could have done this in a single episode.
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