Double action - why it's still relevant.

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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Whirlwind06 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:44 am

Mr. Glock wrote:
Whirlwind06 wrote:I know it's just a sample of one and anecdotal in nature but I witnessed a guy shoot himself in the foot with a Sig 320.
It was at one of the BASS shoots. Cover garment got in the way, not really sure.
That reaffirmed that either TDA, DOA or SA with a manual safety were what I wanted to keep using.

I have been using mostly revolvers for quite awhile so, TDA doesn't really bother me to much.


Was that on the draw or re-holster? Figuring it is really hard to shoot your foot in a string of fire.


During a re-holster. If I remember correctly he had his back to the targets and was facing the back where everyone was standing.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Mr. Glock » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:22 pm

Whirlwind06 wrote:
Mr. Glock wrote:
Whirlwind06 wrote:I know it's just a sample of one and anecdotal in nature but I witnessed a guy shoot himself in the foot with a Sig 320.
It was at one of the BASS shoots. Cover garment got in the way, not really sure.
That reaffirmed that either TDA, DOA or SA with a manual safety were what I wanted to keep using.

I have been using mostly revolvers for quite awhile so, TDA doesn't really bother me to much.


Was that on the draw or re-holster? Figuring it is really hard to shoot your foot in a string of fire.


During a re-holster. If I remember correctly he had his back to the targets and was facing the back where everyone was standing.


That is usually the case, I think. I've seen a lot of folks who draw quickly, fire quickly and then slam that heater back into the holster. It is bad form, as in the real world, you'd want to check/access first anyway.

There is a bit of internet hate about the "look around", but I think it is an effective technique for a single person to use to remind them to look for multiple assailants. Sure, like anything, you can gloss over the check, but at least you aren't slamming the gun back into the holster. And, at least some of the haters tend to work in high tempo teams (SWAT or ex-Mil)...no team for CCers, you are on your own.

Turning back to DA/SA, I think the re-holster is the one time I agree it has a distinct advantage. As was stated, if you put your thumb on the hammer, it is a good solid tell-tale. However, even a lot of DA/SA folks slam that gun back into the holster, which wouldn't be too good if you forgot the de-cock (which does happen with newer DA/SA shooters). Personally, I think the downsides (heavier guns, DA/SA transition, de-cock, increased learning and practice time, unusual safety mechanism a la Beretta 92 outweighs that one advantage. I'm not sure the SA trigger pull is the advantage that it is cracked up to be, only based on the fact that rounds expended in most gun fights tend to be low numbers. Sure, at the range, it is a nice aid to accuracy, but so is SA revolver shooting (which is not for the street).

I ran a Sig 229 in IDPA a number of years ago, just to try it out. I was able to get over the DA/SA change on the first go-round, but always mucked it up after de-cock and a re-start on the same string. After 9 rounds of SA, that change back to DA killed me. And a 229 is way bulkier and heavier than a Glock 19/23, so it went down the road. Just my personal journey there.

But, nothing inherently wrong with DA/SA if that's your boat.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Sevens » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 pm

^ ^ ^ that's yanked directly from my head, fantastic post!
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby dl1911 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:03 am

Whirlwind06 wrote:I know it's just a sample of one and anecdotal in nature but I witnessed a guy shoot himself in the foot with a Sig 320.
It was at one of the BASS shoots. Cover garment got in the way, not really sure.
That reaffirmed that either TDA, DOA or SA with a manual safety were what I wanted to keep using.

I have been using mostly revolvers for quite awhile so, TDA doesn't really bother me to much.

It was 2 years ago and as I recall it was a S&W M&P. Remember because the next month I was shooting one and "apologized" to Joe for the reminder. I think it would have happened regardless what gun he had been shooting unless it had a manual safety that had been engaged. When he went to reholster between strings of fire he didn't get his finger off the trigger and holstered quickly. More important lesson isn't from the type of gun but that there's almost never a reason to holster quickly.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby TSiWRX » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:30 am

dl1911 wrote:
Whirlwind06 wrote:I know it's just a sample of one and anecdotal in nature but I witnessed a guy shoot himself in the foot with a Sig 320.
It was at one of the BASS shoots. Cover garment got in the way, not really sure.
That reaffirmed that either TDA, DOA or SA with a manual safety were what I wanted to keep using.

I have been using mostly revolvers for quite awhile so, TDA doesn't really bother me to much.

It was 2 years ago and as I recall it was a S&W M&P. Remember because the next month I was shooting one and "apologized" to Joe for the reminder. I think it would have happened regardless what gun he had been shooting unless it had a manual safety that had been engaged. When he went to reholster between strings of fire he didn't get his finger off the trigger and holstered quickly. More important lesson isn't from the type of gun but that there's almost never a reason to holster quickly.

*emphasis added.

Excellent details/expansion, thank you.

And to add to the "reholstering quickly," I think that there are times when the shooter will need to reholster in a quick manner. Given recent events - including one in which the legal gun user was shot by the responding officer(s) - I think that those of us who say that we conceal/open carry to protect ourselves outside the home must understand that there will be scenarios which will arise in which our timely stowage of the weapon (be it back on-body or just laid on a nearby surface) will be of utmost importance.

It's not about how fast or slow the shooter reholsters. Even if the shooter holsters slowly, by the time their trigger finger is pinched in between the holster and the trigger, there's no guaranty that it won't have exerted sufficient force to complete the trigger path (and similarly, while I agree that a longer/heavier trigger path should somewhat make for a better preventative stop in this regard, still, there's no guaranty: we know why drivers suffer from "pedal misapplication" incidents, for-instance - the brain can readily convince itself that it is correct, and thus continue to execute the incorrect action). Same goes regarding if the shooter "looks the gun back into the holster" - sure, that's great advice, and I will do it whenever I can - but what if it's in absolute darkness?

It's about holstering safely: understanding that any impediment to the return stroke, tell-tale movement of the striker status indicator/hammer/other such device and/or slide, as and the maintenance of the absolute fundamental practice of keeping one's finger off of the trigger unless a conscious decision has been made to take the shot.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby willbird » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:42 am

Mr. Glock wrote:Ok, I’ll bite :D . How do you explain the fact that the US Military (not all, but the parts that might actually use a pistol in combat at this point) and the vast majority of US law enforcement have moved away from DA/SA to striker-fired pistols if DA/SA is so safe and good? Wouldn’t there be at least a large and active culture of resistence to striker-firedguns that was keeping DA/SA on the crest of technology and thus a competent and easy option (as opposed to the cult of the DA/SA today, most of whom appendix carry but are afraid they might shoot themselves or shoot competitively but don’t want to swipe off a SA safety)?


The military is weird anyway :-). In was told that in many situations they carry empty chamber, and train the soldiers to insert a mag, work the slide, DROP the hammer, then fire the first shot DA.

Well a partially or fully cocked "safety on the trigger" system is sure a heck of a lot simpler than that.

IMHO DA/SA systems will eventually go extinct in new designs for the most part.

I see no issue in using them, but no advantages either, to be fair I am AOK with carrying cocked and locked too.

Bill
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby schmieg » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 pm

Back in the 60's, I was taught to carry the 1911 with a full mag, but an empty chamber. I ignored that in Viet Nam when out in the field, but there would have been heck to pay had I been caught doing that in Germany or stateside (or at Bien Hoa or Saigon for that matter).
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby jeep45238 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:33 pm

TSiWRX wrote:
dl1911 wrote:
Whirlwind06 wrote:I know it's just a sample of one and anecdotal in nature but I witnessed a guy shoot himself in the foot with a Sig 320.
It was at one of the BASS shoots. Cover garment got in the way, not really sure.
That reaffirmed that either TDA, DOA or SA with a manual safety were what I wanted to keep using.

I have been using mostly revolvers for quite awhile so, TDA doesn't really bother me to much.

It was 2 years ago and as I recall it was a S&W M&P. Remember because the next month I was shooting one and "apologized" to Joe for the reminder. I think it would have happened regardless what gun he had been shooting unless it had a manual safety that had been engaged. When he went to reholster between strings of fire he didn't get his finger off the trigger and holstered quickly. More important lesson isn't from the type of gun but that there's almost never a reason to holster quickly.

*emphasis added.

Excellent details/expansion, thank you.

And to add to the "reholstering quickly," I think that there are times when the shooter will need to reholster in a quick manner. Given recent events - including one in which the legal gun user was shot by the responding officer(s) - I think that those of us who say that we conceal/open carry to protect ourselves outside the home must understand that there will be scenarios which will arise in which our timely stowage of the weapon (be it back on-body or just laid on a nearby surface) will be of utmost importance.

It's not about how fast or slow the shooter reholsters. Even if the shooter holsters slowly, by the time their trigger finger is pinched in between the holster and the trigger, there's no guaranty that it won't have exerted sufficient force to complete the trigger path (and similarly, while I agree that a longer/heavier trigger path should somewhat make for a better preventative stop in this regard, still, there's no guaranty: we know why drivers suffer from "pedal misapplication" incidents, for-instance - the brain can readily convince itself that it is correct, and thus continue to execute the incorrect action). Same goes regarding if the shooter "looks the gun back into the holster" - sure, that's great advice, and I will do it whenever I can - but what if it's in absolute darkness?

It's about holstering safely: understanding that any impediment to the return stroke, tell-tale movement of the striker status indicator/hammer/other such device and/or slide, as and the maintenance of the absolute fundamental practice of keeping one's finger off of the trigger unless a conscious decision has been made to take the shot.


So DA/SA adds a layer of safety ;) Not impossible to overcome of course, but it adds a layer whilst removing the need to de-activate a safety lever.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby jeep45238 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:34 pm

schmieg wrote:Back in the 60's, I was taught to carry the 1911 with a full mag, but an empty chamber. I ignored that in Viet Nam when out in the field, but there would have been heck to pay had I been caught doing that in Germany or stateside (or at Bien Hoa or Saigon for that matter).


Marching orders for me was no mag in the M4, 3 on the vest, mag in the M9 with an empty chamber during my stint as an MP. Really for show more than anything :roll:
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:07 pm

jeep45238 wrote:So DA/SA adds a layer of safety ;) Not impossible to overcome of course, but it adds a layer whilst removing the need to de-activate a safety lever.


Again, I totally agree -

But for someone who is going to return the gun into the holster with enough force so as to cause the finger they wedged between it and the trigger to break a shot, I don't know that any amount of "device" will save them.

Like you said, "not impossible." ;)

Good practices should be primary, always - it can never be that any shooter decides that just because he's got a DAO or DA/SA or active-safety handgun that they can check out, mentally, at what is arguably one of the most dangerous moments in gun-handling.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Brian D. » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:21 am

I'm just happy as a range safety officer when shooters have read the owner's manual that came with their gun before coming to a match.

Reason I say that is the one person I ever match DQ'd was using a Beretta 92. He didn't know the decock function of the safety lever, and had an ND about two feet downrange.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Mr. Glock » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:08 pm

So I thought of a (sort of) other strong point for DA/SA. Truck gun, especially if not stored in a hard case. In a soft case/bag/backpack, the long DA trigger and hammer would be useful in safety terms. Both storage and initial presentation.

But, thinking about it more, two issues arise:
1.DA/SA guns tend to be pricey, which is at odds with a truck gun idea
2. Sig’s DAO only with hammer would be better (Kellerman? I can’t recall) because if you
don’t train DA/SA then DAO is more like most other guns and thus a better choice.
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Chuck » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:14 am

I have nothing to add other than I love my DA/SA's and that I am enjoying the conversation

Thank you all
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby jeep45238 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:55 am

Mr. Glock wrote:So I thought of a (sort of) other strong point for DA/SA. Truck gun, especially if not stored in a hard case. In a soft case/bag/backpack, the long DA trigger and hammer would be useful in safety terms. Both storage and initial presentation.

But, thinking about it more, two issues arise:
1.DA/SA guns tend to be pricey, which is at odds with a truck gun idea
2. Sig’s DAO only with hammer would be better (Kellerman? I can’t recall) because if you
don’t train DA/SA then DAO is more like most other guns and thus a better choice.


For the well vetted platforms, you're correct. However HK recently dropped the prices on P30's significantly, occasionally a Beretta PX4 is found for cheap, Bersa is still around and kicking, Makarov designs are there, etc. - not HiPoint cheap, but not P226 expensive either. Truck guns are a different discussion I think, and in my younger years I approved of them, not so much as I've gotten older and thought about things from different angles. Different discussion though.

Sig had DAO and then a Kellerman (DAK) - and HK has the law enforcment module (LEM). I think they have points, in that essentially you can run a near DA/SA without having to worry about decocking. After using both, I think the LEM is better, as with the DAK the reset has a much heavier poundage than the initial DA pull, and the LEM is consistant (mechanically speaking however, the LEM is essentially a fully cocked SA gun with a 2 part hammer and a long trigger travel - the DAK is much closer to TDA). Flip the poundage on the DAK and I think I would really like it however. I think the easiest way to run a DAK is to treat it like a DAO and release the trigger fully between shots, and with the LEM I just wasn't able to run it as well as a TDA.

If the funds free up and everything gets aligned I might try a P30 TDA version, but in the meantime, I've standardized on the classic Sig platform for now (although I still do some work with a Beretta 92, the ergos are totally different between the two).
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Re: Double action - why it's still relevant.

Postby Tru-Heathen » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:58 pm

Sig P250 is also DAO. I bought a NIB 2nd generation sub-compact last fall for ~$325.
It reminds me of a smooth revolver trigger.
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